Photos that make us see

Mario Boccia

 

 

It’s not a phrase when I say that my friend’s photos, a great Italian photojournalist and humanist, can’t easily leave you indifferent. They are reminding us and pointing out the injustice in this world, thus make us wonder and think about the situations in which the people from his photos have found themselves. He came to Sarajevo on the occasion of the filming “Venuto al mondo”, so we used this opportunity to talk with him about his work, about his love for this land and his contribution to the film currently being filmed.

 

 

 

Like a photo-journalist who does non-commercial photography, how do you experience the fashion photography which is more and more present even outside the fashion industry?

 

With curiosity. I don’t believe there is a direct relationship between the work of a photo-journalist and that of a fashion photographer. But it can happen that people, who do so different jobs, end up imitating each other.

There may be fashion editorials or advertising campaigns made in the "style" of photo-reportage, or photo-journalists that conform their work to the fashion "style". But if in the first case those are the works that could work (in a commercial sense), in the second case, they are often ugly photo-reportages, poor in information.

 

 

What is the difference between press photography and artistic photography?
 

There are different opinions about it. I think that a photojournalist must recount the events he’s witnessed in an effective manner, through photographs. A photojournalist "compose" his image just like a reporter writes his article (and sometimes he does both). A story is good when it is understandable.

An artist has fewer constraints. He can use camera as a tool to express his creativity, even at the cost of misunderstanding. This is not to say that photojournalists should give up the search for their own "style", but only repeat that the correct information must be the first goal for them.

Generally I don’t trust photo-journalists who put the aesthetic in front of the facts, as journalists who are in love with their own writing. Unfortunately, narcissism and the scarcity of content are characteristics of our time.

 

 

You mostly do social moments, why is that?

Doing my job well is my "political" commitment. Photographing in order to inform is my way of trying to improve things. In the end, it is always the same old story: there is the arrogance and the force against reason. You can choose the side also by taking photographs.

 

 

You've taken a lot of pictures of Serbia, Bosnia and Hercegovina, Kosovo, Montenegro and Macedonia. When and why did You start being interested in these countries?

The link with this land was born from my holidays as a child. I’ve been coming here as a tourist with my family since 1963. There was also a political link with the partisan experience of my mother and her family, against Nazi-Fascism. In short, when the crisis in Yugoslavia ended, it seemed natural to be among the first to arrive. It was something that concerned me closely.

 

 

Besides these countries, You have also worked in Africa, South America and Middle East. Can You tell us something about these countries and make a comparison?
 

It’s hard to do that in a few lines. I can say that Africa is the great mother. Its nature is as impressive as fragile and the injustices suffered are the largest. Africa dying of hunger allows us to die of indigestion. It doesn’t suffer of "underdevelopment" but too much of exploitation.

 

South America is a continent where they speak the same language almost everywhere, and this makes communication easier, provided that you do not forget that the origin is a brutal European colonial conquest. South America is also the American dark side of the moon.
In the Middle East I have worked in Iraq (1991 and 2004) and in Israel and Palestine. An irreconcilable conflict is rooted in the land that should be the most "sacred" for the two most common human religions and the oldest, without any of the three propagate murder as a sacrament.

 

 

We can see a human factor in all of Your photos. Could You explain to us how You see the importance of the human subject and the environment with regard to photography?
 

Photography is a social relationship. The photo is a trace of an encounter. I am a "slow" photographer. One of those who like to talk to people who are being photographed. Go back and recover the photos, when possible, is also an opportunity of human and journalistic improvement. Through people I try to understand the environment in which they live.

 

 

Your photos and stories have helped in some way and were the inspiration to the writer of the book “Venuto al Mondo”, according to which they are shooting the movie with the same name in Sarajevo. Could You tell us something more about it, how you have influenced the creation of this book?

A good and famous writer as Margaret Mazzantini is does not need my help to write a novel. Among her qualities Margaret is a good listener. It 'true, I’ve told her about the heart of Sarajevo that I have seen, but she has done more. She came into my soul and wrote things that I could never tell her. I’m not that good at words. She is an artist and "Venuto al mondo" is her book. In the credits on the last page, she wrote: "to Mario Boccia: his photographs have made me see". For me that is like a won World Press Photo.

 

 

In this film (Venuto al mondo) Your photos were used. How does it feel to see them in the film in the context of the story?

My photographs have played themselves in an exhibition made ​​in Sarajevo. The actors have starred among the pictures. It was an emotional moment. Of course, to me it seemed like a beautiful scene.

 

 

The main role in the film is played by famous Penelope Cruz. Do You think her role will make the story more popular?
 

This is the famous actors’ job. But I must say that seeing Penelope Cruz work was very touching. By the way she looked at my photos that, in film, were made by her companion, a photographer who died during the war years (I can say this without ruining the surprise, because it is the opening scene in the film). It’s impossible not to be fascinated by the intensity of her look. Surely her presence will attract the public, but a film is a work done by the team directed by the director. In this case it is also a great actor, Sergio Castellitto.

 

 

You've done the photos of the regions at war. How did You deal with the devastation and how difficult it is to be a professional and separate work from harsh reality?

It's always difficult. But I hope that my work has never been "separated" from reality. Whether in a war context, and in that of the everyday violence of poverty, I would like it to reflect also my discomfort, anger (or irony), from the photos I make.

 

 

How much can a good photographer be objective in these situations and how you can determine to what extent interfere in reality at the expense of a good picture?
 

In other words: "If you're in a dramatic situation, what to do? Give a hand or take a picture?” I think this relates to the conscience of each one of us. But I prefer to talk about this to those found in a similar situation and who had to choose. Talking in general, with those who will never get their hands dirty, it seems useless. To you, who I know well, I can answer: for me the respect of human dignity is fundamental, the rest comes by itself.

 

 

You've done a lot of pictures of emotional and upsetting occasions. When You look at those photos, do You have a special bond with some of them?

The most important picture was a photo that I did not want to take, just for the reason that I told you before. The subject didn’t want to have his picture taken and I felt like I was doing violence on him. But, thanks to that picture, that boy, who had lost his legs to a grenade, is still alive. But I could not know that while I was taking that photo. I still can not look at it calmly, and I hope he will never remember me and that terrible moment.

 

 

You've taken the last known photo of Izet Kika Sarajliæ in 2002, with whom You became friends during Your visit to Sarajevo. How do you remember him and how much You learned about him and our people through his poems?

Forgive me, but I think Izet Sarajliæ was a world poet, not just "yours". I have beautiful memories of him. His poetry is simple and at the same time is an anthology of the European literary culture. Reading his poems is like caressing your woman, like watching the grass and not wanting to tread on it.

The story of Izet is a part of the bond with this land, which comes from far. Izet's nineteen year old brother was shot by the fascists during the Second World War. "By the Fascists, not by Italians", he used to say. His two sisters died of old age and poverty in the siege of Sarajevo, 50 days one after another. Yet it’s not possible to find a single word or a verse against "Italians", "Serbs", "Croats", the "Muslims", etc. He is not angry with the people but with criminals, taken individually or organized into parties. Such a wisdom and subtlety of mind.

 

The International Festival of Poetry dedicated to him has come to the tenth edition in Sarajevo. There are poets who come from all over the world to remember him.

 

There, this work introduced me to people so extraordinary that you do not ever feel up to them. And you never stop learning. That is why I love my job.

U FOKUSU  PRIČA SE DA  KULTURA  UMETNOST  FOTOGRAFIJA  FILM  POZORIŠTE  KNJIŽEVNOST  MUZIKA  ARHITEKTURA  DIZAJN  ENTERIJER  TERAPIJA STANOVANJA  MODA  STRIP  HIGIJENA UMA  RIZNICA  STIL  AUTO  ASTRO  KREATIVNI DNEVNIK

Fotografije koje čine da vidimo

Mario Boća (Mario Boccia)

 

 

Nije fraza kada kažem da fotografije mog prijatelja, velikog italijanskog fotoreportera i humaniste, ne mogu lako da vas ostave ravnodušnim. One opominju i ukazuju na nepravde ovog sveta, te čine da se zamislite i razmislite o situacijama u kojima su se našle te osobe na njegovim fotografijama. Došao je u Sarajevo povodom snimanja filma "Venuto al Mondo", pa smo iskoristili priliku da sa njim popričamo o njegovom radu, o ljubavi koju gaji prema našim prostorima i o njegovom doprinosu filmu koji se trenutno snima.

 

 

Kao fotoreporter koji se bavi nekomercijalnom fotografijom, kako doživljavate modne fotografije koje su danas sve zastupljenije i van oblasti modne industrije?

 

Posmatram ih s radoznalošću. Ne verujem da postoji direktna veza između posla kojim se bavi fotoreporter i onim kojim se bavi modni fotograf. Međutim, može se desiti da osobe koje se bave tako različitim poslom, na kraju i međusobno iskopiraju.

Mogu postojati modni editorijali ili reklamne kampanje u stilu fotoreportaže, ili fotoreporteri koji usklađuju svoj rad modnom „stilu“. Ali ako se u prvom slučaju radi o radovima koji mogu funkcionisati (u komercijalnom smislu), u drugom slučaju, često se radi o veoma lošim fotoreportažama, siromašnim informacijama.

 

 

Koja je razlika između novinske i umetničke fotografije?

 

Tu postoje različita mišljenja. Mislim da fotoreporter mora da ispriča događaje kojima je bio svedok na jedan efikasan način preko fotografija. Fotoreporter „sastavlja” svoju fotografiju onako kako novinar piše članak (a ponekad radi obe stvari). Reportaža je dobra kada je razumljiva.

Umetnik ima manje ograničenja. Može koristiti fotoaparat kao instrument da prikaže svoju kreativnost, pa čak i po cenu nerazumevanja. S ovim ne želim reći da se fotoreporter mora odreći potrage za sopstvenim stilom, već samo ponoviti da za njega prvi cilj mora biti tačna informacija.

Uopšteno ne uzdam se u fotoreportere koji prednost daju estetskom na štetu činjenica, kao što je slučaj kod onih novinara koji su zaljubljeni u sopstvene reči. Nažalost, narcisizam i siromašnost sadržaja su odlika našeg vremena.

 

 

Uglavnom se bavite socijalnim momentima, zbog čega?

 

Ukoliko dobro radim svoj posao, to je i moj „politički“ angažman. Fotografije koje informišu su moj način da pokušam da poboljšam stvari. U suštini, uvek se radi o staroj i uobičajenoj priči: postoji arogantnost i snaga protiv razuma. Strana se može odabrati i stvarajući fotografije.

 

 

Dosta ste fotografisali Srbiju, Bosnu i Hercegovinu, Kosovo, Crnu Goru i Makedoniju. Kada i zbog čega se javilo interesovanje za naše prostore?

 

Veza sa ovom zemljom se rodila iz mojih letovanja kada sam bio dete. Dolazio sam ovde turistički s roditeljima još od 1963. godine. Postojala je i izvesna politička veza s partizanskim iskustvima moje majke i njene porodice protiv fašizma. Sve u svemu, kada se kriza u bivšoj Jugoslaviji smirila, činilo mi se sasvim prirodnim da ja budem među prvima koji su ovde došli. Radilo se o nečemu što me se lično ticalo.

 

 

Pored naših, radili ste i na prostoru Afrike, Južne Amerike i Bliskog Istoka. Možete li da nam ispričate nešto o ovim zemljama i da ih uporedite na evropskim?

 

Teško je to učiniti u par redova. Mogu reći da je Afrika velika majka. Njena priroda je toliko impozantna koliko i krhka i nepravde koje je pretrpela su najveće od svih. Afrika koja umire od gladi omogućava nama da umiremo od lošeg varenja. Ne pati Afrika od „nerazvijenosti“, već od preterane eksploatacije.

Južna Amerika je kontinent gde se svugde govori isti jezik, a to znatno olakšava komunikaciju, pod uslovom da se ne zaboravi da to potiče od brutalnih evropskih kolonijalnih osvajanja. A s druge strane, Južna Amerika je tamna strana meseca Amerike.

Na Bliskom Istoku sam radio u Iraku (1991. i 2004. godine) i u Izraelu i Palestini. Nerazrešiv konflikt uranja korenje u zemlju koja bi trebalo da bude „najsvetija“ zbog dve najrasprostranjenije religije i zbog one najdrevnije, a da ni jedna od tri ne propagira ubistvo kao sakrament.

 

Na većini Vaših fotografija se primećuje ljudski faktor. Objasnite nam kako vidite značaj ljudskog subjekta i okoline kada je fotografija u pitanju?

 

Fotografija predstavlja društveni odnos. Ona je trag odigranog susreta. Ja sam „spor“ fotograf. Jedan od onih koji voli da porazgovara sa osobama koje fotografiše. Vratiti se i povratiti slike, ukoliko je to moguće, je prilika za dublje preispitivanje čoveka i novinara. Preko ljudi pokušavam da spoznam ambijent u kome žive.

 

 

Vaše fotografije i priče na neki način bile su pomoć i inspiracija autorki knjige „Venuto al Mondo“, po kojoj se upravo snima istoimeni film u Sarajevu. Možete li nam detaljnije ispričati na koji način ste uticali na stvaranje ove knjige?

 

Dobroj i čuvenoj spisateljici kao što je to Margaret Mezantini nije potrebna moja pomoć da bi napisala roman. Među njenim kvalitetima, Margaret poseduje i onu da zna da sluša. Istina je, ispričao sam joj o duši Sarajeva koju sam doživeo, ali ona je učinila više od toga. Prodrela je u moju dušu i napisala stvari koje nisam mogao da joj kažem. Ja nisam tako dobar sa rečima. Ona je umetnica i „Venuto al mondo“ je njena knjiga. U zahvalnici na poslednjoj strani je napisala: „Mariju Boći, njegove fotografije su učinile da vidim“. Za mene je to kao osvojeni World Press Photo.

 

 

U pomenutom filmu (Venuto al Mondo) korišćene su upravo Vaše fotografije. Kakav je osećaj videti ih u filmu u kontekstu cele priče?

 

Moje fotografije igraju same sebe na jednoj izložbi održanoj u Sarajevu. Glumci su nastupali okruženi njima. Bilo je emotivno. Naravno, meni je to bila jedna neverovatna scena.

 

 

Glavnu ulogu u ovom filmu glumi širom sveta poznata Penelopa Kruz. Mislite li da će njena pojava uticati na popularizaciju cele priče?

 

To je zadatak slavnih glumaca. Ali moram reći da videti Penelopu Kruz kako radi me je pogodilo. Zbog načina na koji je posmatrala moje fotografije koje je, u filmu, snimio njen prijatelj, fotograf, koji je poginuo tokom ratnih godina (mogu slobodno da kažem a da ne pokvarim iznenađenje, pošto je to scena koja otvara film). Nemoguće je ne ostati opčinjen intenzitetom njenog pogleda. Zasigurno će njena pojava privući publiku, ali film ostaje delo ekipe koju vodi režiser. U ovom slučaju radi se i o jednom velikom glumcu, Serđu Kastelitu.

 

 

Fotografisali ste ratna područja. Kako ste se nosili sa razaranjima oko sebe dok ste fotografisali i koliko je teško biti profesionalan i odvojiti posao koji radite od surove realnosti koja se dešava?

 

Uvek je teško. Ali nadam se da moj posao nikada nije bio odvojen od realnosti. Bilo da se radi o kontekstu rata, bilo o svakodnevnom nasilju siromaštva, želeo bih da odražava moje nezadovoljstvo, nemir, bes (ili čak  ironiju), iz fotografija koje stvaram.

 

 

Koliko dobar fotograf može ostati objektivan u takvim situacijama i kako može da oceni koliko će se umešati u stvarnost na uštrb dobre fotografije?

 

Drugim rečima: „Ako se nađeš u dramatičnoj situaciji, šta da radiš? Da pomogneš ili da napraviš fotografiju?“ Verujem da se ovo tiče svesti svakog od nas. Ali više volim da razgovaram o ovome s nekim ko se našao u sličnoj situaciji i ko je morao da izabere. Govoriti o ovome uopšteno, s nekim ko nikad neće uprljati ruke, čini mi se beznačajnim. Tebi, koju dobro poznajem, mogu otvoreno da odgovorim: za mene je poštovanje ljudskog dostojanstva suštinsko, ostalo dolazi od sebe.

 

 

Fotografisali ste zaista mnoge emotivne i potresne momente. Kada pogledate te fotografije, da li ste posebno vezani za neku?

 

Najbitnija fotografija bila je jedna koju nisam želeo da napravim, upravo iz razloga koji sam spomenuo. Ta osoba nije želela da se slika i ja sam imao osećaj kao da je maltretiram... Ali, zahvaljujući toj fotografiji, taj dečak, koji je izgubio obe noge zbog granate, je još uvek živ. No, ja to nisam mogao znati dok sam snimao tu fotografiju. Ne uspevam još uvek da je pogledam na miru i nadam se da se on nikada neće setiti mene i tog užasnog trenutka.

 

 

Napravili ste poslednju fotografiju 2002. godine čuvenog Izeta Kike Sarajlića, sa kojim ste se tokom boravka u Sarajevu i sprijateljili. Kakva sećanja nosite na njega i koliko ste naučili o njemu i našim ljudima kroz njegovu poeziju?

 

Oprosti mi, ali mislim da je Izet Sarajlić bio svetski pesnik, a ne samo „vaš“. Imam lepa sećanja na njega. Njegova poezija je jednostavna, a istovremeno je i antologija evropske književnosti. Čitati njegovu poeziju je kao milovati svoju ženu, kao posmatrati travu i ne želeti da je pogazimo.

Priča o Izetu je veza sa ovom zemljom, koja dolazi iz daleka. Izetov devetnaestogodišnji brat ubijen je tokom Drugog svetskog rata. „Ubili su ga fašisti, ne italijani“, govorio bi on. Njegove dve sestre umrle su od starosti i bede tokom opsade Sarajeva, sa pedeset dana razmaka. Pa ipak, ne može se pronaći jedna jedina reč ili stih protiv „Italijana“, „Srba“, „Hrvata“, „Muslimana“, itd. On nije ljut na narode, već na kriminalce, uzete ponaosob ili organizovane. Koliko mudrosti i suptilnosti uma.

 

Međunarodni festival poezije posvećen njemu došao je do svog desetog organizovanja u Sarajevu. Tu se okupljaju pesnici iz celog sveta kako bi ga se prisetili.

Eto, ovaj posao mi je omogućio da upoznam osobe tako neverovatne da se nikad ne osetiš kao da si dostigao njihovu visinu. I nikada ne prestaješ da učiš. Upravo zbog toga mi se dopada posao kojim se bavim.

FotografijaPHOTOGRAPHY

Razgovarala: Olga Žarković